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Is it possible to scrobble a live stream in WinAMP (e.g. kexp?)

 
    • bndo escribió...
    • Usuario
    • 13 Sep 2006, 19:53

    Is it possible to scrobble a live stream in WinAMP (e.g. kexp?)

    I've searched through the forums as much as I could and haven't been able to find a definitive answer to this.

    Has anyone had success marrying Last.FM with a streaming radio station such as kexp.org?

    thanks in advance

    • spacefish escribió...
    • Usuario
    • 14 Sep 2006, 14:39
    No, streams outside of last.fm cannot be scrobbled. This is intended.

    • bndo escribió...
    • Usuario
    • 14 Sep 2006, 19:33
    spacefish said:
    No, streams outside of last.fm cannot be scrobbled. This is intended.

    ok well thanks for the confirmation.

    • [Usuario eliminado] escribió...
    • Usuario
    • 14 Sep 2006, 19:46
    You can get plugins for other players listed at the bottom of http://www.last.fm/tools/downloads/

    I just got the Yahoo Music Engine one, and it is working with streamed music out of Last.fm streams.

    There is also a winamp plugin listed, but I don't know how it works yet. Going to try now in fact...

    • spacefish escribió...
    • Usuario
    • 15 Sep 2006, 2:33
    wwwdotcomhere said:
    I just got the Yahoo Music Engine one, and it is working with streamed music out of Last.fm streams.

    It does not work with basic radio streams. Yahoo is a rating service and because the user has a limited amount of control over what plays in the stream, last.fm permits scrobbling here. Pandora also works. Stations like Soma.fm which are entirely programmed by the station and cannot be affected by the user cannot be scrobbled.

    • [Usuario eliminado] escribió...
    • Usuario
    • 15 Sep 2006, 7:46
    The message I have gotten is that it can't read the tags. I don't buy that it can't. I don't need to either, I talked to some of the programmers here years ago before the snazzy red look on this site was designed.

    From what I understand, they simply don't want to. The argument made is that people will listen to a station and not rate the songs. They will also listen to songs they may not like, whereas playing mp3's or a CD is supposedly more selective.

    The problem I have with this is that even if I have a CD, I still don't know what is on the CD until I listen to it. Make sense? It's only when I play the music multiple times that I can have more selective control over what I listen to.

    Considering the music is random on these stations to maintain legal standards, the repetition is not there. So, we are back to why don't they allow us to track streams? The data is accurate, and it is a great loss to the people who do listen to streams and can't have that music tracked.

    This gives no one a point of entry when a radio station wants to introduce new bands. You have to be known enough to have a CD or mp3 traded around to get on the list of tracked music.

    Another thing this points out is that the older established bands are therefore at the top of each member's most listened stats. That in NO WAY means they are our favorites. Those artists have simply been around longer, and therefore have more singles which increases the chances they will be listened to.

    With that said, I hope last.fm fixes this inaccuracy and allows for streams. There is valuable data there regardless if you want to recognize it or not. I don't buy "it can't" be done. I think they simply "don't want" to for invalid reasons.

    • spacefish escribió...
    • Usuario
    • 15 Sep 2006, 8:06
    The main reason they don't permit scrobbling of regular radio streams is that the programs are out of control of the listener and therefore don't accurately reflect their listening taste but rather the taste of the station programmer or DJ.

    I think that's a pretty valid reason, personally. /shrug

    I came to last.fm an avid stream listener and brought up the subject about a year ago when I first arrived and found many other folks did as well. I was never given the impression that scrobbling of streams couldn't be done, but always that it wouldn't be done for the reason I stated above. Since discovering how much more versatile last.fm radio is, I haven't listened to my old streaming radio stations since anyway so I'm not really bothered by it.

    • [Usuario eliminado] escribió...
    • Usuario
    • 15 Sep 2006, 12:55
    "The programs are out of control of the listener and therefore don't accurately reflect their listening taste but rather the taste of the station programmer or DJ."

    That is only an assertion. It isn't accurate. You do NOT have control of what is on a CD. Artists don't even have full control of what goes on a CD. The record companies wouldn't produce an album if they thought there were songs that wouldn't sell while the artist wanted those songs on the album.

    A CD DOES include good tracks along with some of the bad ones (actually, a lot to me). For what it's worth, that is a good point.

    Streaming is a facet which allows the broadcaster to introduce new music which you would not hear on a CD, unless you bought it. Well, I am not going to buy the CD and find out I don't like the songs.

    I listen to the streams first. With podcasting, I can listen over and over and over and over again. That information is JUST AS VALID as me listening to the same song on a CD as many times.

    To really put this in Last.fm territory:

    1) I HEARD A NEW BAND FROM A STREAMED SHOW AT http://www.kcrw.com

    2) I THEN SEARCHED IT USING THE LAST.FM SITE, AND I ALSO USED THE LAST.FM PROGRAM

    3) I LISTENED TO THE SAME BAND THROUGH BOTH THE STREAM AND LAST.FM PROGRAM

    4) ONLY THE TIMES WHEN I LISTENED TO THIS NEW BAND ON LAST.FM WERE RECORDED. WHAT DOES THIS MEAN??? WHEN IT'S NOT IN MY CONTROL DID IT GET RECORDED!!!

    THIS IS THE OPPOSITE OF THE INTENT, WE WANT TO RECORD WHEN THE LISTENER HAS CONTROL RIGHT?

    5) THE ONLY FACET TO ME OF CONTROL IS LISTENING TO THE SAME STREAM.

    6) STREAM IS LISTENED TO MORE OFTEN, AND NOT RECORDED IN THE END

    I controlled all this cause I wanted to listen to the stream. Why? The artists played the tracks I liked.

    If I bought all their CD's it would have cost me a lot more, but with this stream all the songs I liked were in one stream.

    So, NO, it's not all what the broadcaster wants. Sometimes, it also reflects what the listener wants. Otherwise, the broadcaster wouldn't have listeners if they only played what they wanted.

    The broadcasters are bringing music to the listener they think the listeners want.

    I hope Last.fm sees this and allows us the option to record streamed music.

    • spacefish escribió...
    • Usuario
    • 15 Sep 2006, 13:19
    wwwdotcomhere said:
    You do NOT have control of what is on a CD.

    Yes, you do. You can skip tracks at will, play them all, play only one of them. You can't do that with a streaming radio station like Soma.fm, DI.fm, or any Shoutcast broadcast, etc.

    ONLY THE TIMES WHEN I LISTENED TO THIS NEW BAND ON LAST.FM WERE RECORDED. WHAT DOES THIS MEAN??? WHEN IT'S NOT IN MY CONTROL DID IT GET RECORDED!!!
    And I think you need to cut back on the caffeine there, buddy. :)

    But you are in control. It's very simple. You can skip the track on last.fm's stream. You can choose not to listen to that track, you can ban that track, you can love that track, and you can continue to listen to the stream. You cannot do that on a pre-programmed streaming radio station. If you don't like the track, you're SOL. You either have to listen to it, change the station, or turn off your media player. Outside of a live "request" line, you can't affect which artists will play on the station nor which tracks, genres, etc.

    I don't know if you've ever been a subscriber (the account you're posting from is fairly new), but you have even more control over your tag radio stations. Something programmed streams never permit you. My personal radio is the best station I've ever heard. Why? Because it's all music I approve of! Sometimes the mood will dictate a skip or two but I am in control. Mwahahaha!

    Anyway, I suggest if you're really serious about permitting scrobbling of pre-programmed streams, you email support here at last.fm and calmly express your concerns. While I'd welcome the option myself, I do understand why it's not available. Besides, arguing with me is pointless. I'm not in charge. ;)

    • muz escribió...
    • Alumni
    • 15 Sep 2006, 13:39
    I would like to chime in and mention that another reason why we don't allow for the scrobbling of radio streams other than our own is that there isn't a strict standard in which we can fetch metadata, or know when the track starts and ends.

    Focusing more on the metadata issue, we'd rather not have our charts polluted with tunes like "Radiohead - Paranoid Android \\--{[[soma.fm]]}--//" and the likes, seeing as when some streams do choose to send the track info, it's with tag lines and the such.

    • spacefish escribió...
    • Usuario
    • 15 Sep 2006, 13:42
    mustaqila said:
    Focusing more on the metadata issue, we'd rather not have our charts polluted with tunes like "Radiohead - Paranoid Android \\--{[[soma.fm]]}--//" and the likes, seeing as when some streams do choose to send the track info, it's with tag lines and the such.

    Good point, Muz. Thanks for chiming in!

    • [Usuario eliminado] escribió...
    • Usuario
    • 15 Sep 2006, 15:06
    spacefish,

    ::: Please refrain from insulting me. We had a good dialogue. I prefer to stick to the subject matter. Please join me in that. ::::


    CD music can be skipped, but that is the point. I don't have to skip streamed music. I know it is good from the get go. I take an ipod stream I know I like and I just play it. I can always edit the mp3 in program so songs I don't like don't get played.

    I can't do that with a CD. I would have to burn each and every song I want which is a lot more work than removing a few songs from an ipod stream that I don't want.

    Your arguments are good in one cookie cutter approach, but you aren't looking at the overall aspect of this. Most, if not all, of the profiles I have seen have established bands way at the top. Especially Pink Floyd, which I have never even seeked out. It just started playing and playing. Yes, they are good, but not my favorite. It seems like the stats are skewed to the older artists and not open to the newer ones which are talked about in streams.

    Another thing is last.fm is really British based. This isn't bad, but the point is I see a lot of Brit bands being in the spotlight. I love the bands, I forgot about them. However, it is very selective compared to other record labels and music out there.

    Streams would help balance this out. We would be exposed to new music not heard and can record it. I am limited to the music that is pre-labeled.

    With this tag system in place, it makes accuracy in labeling obsolete. People make all sorts of labels for music they hear. Instead of Last.fm controlling how the listener sets their account to track music, why not let the listener choose?

    I think it's about time.

    • [Usuario eliminado] escribió...
    • Usuario
    • 15 Sep 2006, 15:24
    mustaqila


    "I would like to chime in and mention that another reason why we don't allow for the scrobbling of radio streams other than our own is that there isn't a strict standard in which we can fetch metadata, or know when the track starts and ends."

    An opera is very long too, how do you go about tracking that? You have to make arbitrary breaking points, otherwise you have one long stream.

    If I want to listen to "Show number 4" a million times, that is music I want to listen to a million times. If you listen to that too, wouldn't it be in theory tagged the same way? So, why worry about how it is scrobbled? If anyone with money in their pockets catches on that millions of people are listening to "Show number 4" a million times, they're going to invest that money and find out what is on "Show number 4". They won't just sit idly by.

    "Focusing more on the metadata issue, we'd rather not have our charts polluted with tunes like "Radiohead - Paranoid Android \\--{[[soma.fm]]}--//" and the likes, seeing as when some streams do choose to send the track info, it's with tag lines and the such."

    You already have tags which cloud the uniformity of labeling. I consider this a good thing. By allowing us the listeners to tage our own music, you are allowing us to categorize the music we want. In turn, we will label music mentioned in your earlier quote into categories which would be like "Show number 4" with tags: beatles, pink floyd, led zepplin. Let us solve the confusion for us.

    Give us the chance.

    • spacefish escribió...
    • Usuario
    • 15 Sep 2006, 15:28
    ::cue Twilight Zone music::

    Where am I? I thought I came in here to answer a question.

    I'm not inclined to insult you, argue with you (I'm actually pro-stream scrobbling, go figure!), or at this point, even talk to you. Why? Because I don't care. :)

    Muz gave an official response. I'm done here.

    Thank you, please drive through!

    • [Usuario eliminado] escribió...
    • Usuario
    • 15 Sep 2006, 16:09
    spacefish,

    official response? If we appoint someone to say the earth is flat, it doesn't matter how wrong it is, you just want it to be official.

    Yes, you were insulting, and it's a shame people who agree on something can't stand together to make a unified request to the "officials" that we add something we want.

    I am not moving on, I was this way 3 years ago. I want to be able to scrobble streamed tracks. It is one big reason why I am not a paying member.

    I want to be able to track what I listen to, not what last.fm wants me to track.

    • muz escribió...
    • Alumni
    • 15 Sep 2006, 16:27
    wwwdotcomhere said:
    An opera is very long too, how do you go about tracking that? You have to make arbitrary breaking points, otherwise you have one long stream.

    With an opera, the conductor or whomever is in charge of it can cut it up as they wish, as it is their own work, and as such artist intent is something that should be respected concerning music. Even then, if it was a 2 hour long single track, we would scrobble it after 4 minutes as per the protocol. With a radio stream, how are we to know if the track is longer than 8 minutes, or where to call 50%, or more so how would we know how long you intend to listen to the stream for.

    wwwdotcomhere said:
    If I want to listen to "Show number 4" a million times, that is music I want to listen to a million times. If you listen to that too, wouldn't it be in theory tagged the same way? So, why worry about how it is scrobbled? If anyone with money in their pockets catches on that millions of people are listening to "Show number 4" a million times, they're going to invest that money and find out what is on "Show number 4". They won't just sit idly by.

    Concerning the tagging issue you're trying to make a point out of, you could listen to the same track from either a CD you own, one radio stream or another. There is no uniform way in which radio streaming sites will put their tag lines, so it's not easy to edit out, and more so they won't all point to the same page for an amalgum of statistical data.

    wwwdotcomhere said:
    You already have tags which cloud the uniformity of labeling. I consider this a good thing. By allowing us the listeners to tage our own music, you are allowing us to categorize the music we want. In turn, we will label music mentioned in your earlier quote into categories which would be like "Show number 4" with tags: beatles, pink floyd, led zepplin. Let us solve the confusion for us.

    Tagging music, and ID3 tagging are two seperate things, and the main concern is with the latter, not the former social medium. As said above, it would cause large amounts of inaccuracy concerning the ID3 data harvested and their sum total for track statistics.


    wwwdotcomhere said:
    Give us the chance.

    Here's something you probably don't know, when this project first started, everything was recorded, from the videos you watched, to radio streams, and the porn clips you found on your dad machines. Whatever, it was all scrobbled and it became sorely apparent that something needed to be done to help prevent the polluting of the site database through the use of a number of methods. One of these was the fact that radio streams would no longer be scrobbled. The line needed to be drawn somewhere over what is feasible to be scrobbled and what not.

    wwwdotcomhere said:
    spacefish,

    official response? If we appoint someone to say the earth is flat, it doesn't matter how wrong it is, you just want it to be official.

    Sorry, but I guess my role as a staff member means nothing to you then. I don't make the rules, all I'm doing is simply relaying them on.

    p.s., notice how I don't use caps lock.

    • [Usuario eliminado] escribió...
    • Usuario
    • 15 Sep 2006, 18:24
    mustaqila,

    Yes, everything you quoted wasn't in caps, and your responses weren't in caps. I think your point was that my earlier response to someone else had caps. I notice that and to tell you the truth, it has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand. I would rather get to that. Please join me. No insults, no attacking side issues please.

    "With an opera, the conductor or whomever is in charge of it can cut it up as they wish, as it is their own work"

    Most of these composers are dead, so I highly doubt they can stand up to conduct. This brings up another request, to have "composer" added, so it's not just artist.

    "Tagging music, and ID3 tagging are two seperate things"

    Yes, the point was "sfsldkfjsdlkfhweortwerwe" whatever is ID tagged as useless info. However, we can tag (the other tag) and clear up what it actually is.

    I am not a programmer, and I can see it. Imagine what programmers could do with that info. It's way beyond me.

    "Whatever, it was all scrobbled and it became sorely apparent that something needed to be done to help prevent the polluting of the site database through the use of a number of methods."

    You are not taking statistics then. You are dictating what you are going to record. Just because you don't like the data you are collecting, doesn't mean you can just go and throw it away (regardless how undesireable it is).

    Would it really be that hard to have a streamed section listing everything and allow the user to edit?

    Ever hear of net neutrality? What you are doing is similar to the opposite of it in that you want to rank content consumers listen to and not make some of it available through your services. You are playing gatekeeper to what the person can scrobble in their account. Why are you representing this concept as if it were an accurate representation of what the listener listens to?

    It could be nothing further from the truth. It represents what you want to record that I listen to. I listen to about 50% streamed music and 50% music that can be scrobbled as you see in my profile.

    You aren't getting a 100% picture of my music profile because you choose not to collect the other 50% of what I listen to.

    • halnine escribió...
    • Usuario
    • 14 Oct 2006, 4:13
    Interesting manifesto style, but please - staff will never read long, angry and inflamatory messages, you know.
    Keep it short (oh, and thanks for not using caps anymore), to the point and as unemotional as possible. That's the only way to make people WANT to help/respond to the point.

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